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As Friday August 15 dissolves into Saturday August 16th, you will note a ground breaking change of policy at Daily Kos.  It is a startling reversal of policy. One is reminded of observing "glasnost" era Gorbachev's USSR.

Somehow it has become not only possible, but recommendable to suggest, without much convincing evidence that current US President George W Bush is "responsible for the Russian invasion" of Ossetia.

See a gnostic 's diary... or you couldn't have missed it anyway ?

http://www.dailykos.com/...

I support a gnostic's right to post his diary.
But consider this.

Normally considered barely competent, President '43 is portrayed as capable of remotely controlling the armed forces of a foreign state widely thought to be governed by Vladimir Putin and a ventriloquist dummy by the name of Medvedyev.  ( the y helps )

What does this embrace of unproven and unsubstantiated assaults on DKOS tradition mean ?
Jump below to consider the possibilites.

  1.  Lame duckism:    Where it was unwelcome to suggest that President W was part of a conspiracy to do bad things for much of his term, the sheer significance of being a lame duck was not fully appreciated.  With only a few months to go and very low polling numbers it is NOW fair to find him responsible for events that would normally seem beyond his control.
  1. Right topic:  Attempts to find President W engaged in conspiratorial activity are only celebrated and uprated if and when they avoid certain sacred cows.  This would be especially important if those sacred cows had a team of monitors ready to pounce and suddenly care about the exact definition of a valid diary.  And while oddly enough Cows are sacred they abuse and defame the entire category felinus with horrible images of animal abuse.  They seem unaware of their confession to strange rituals, willingness to photograph their perversion, and most surprisingly, willingness to share the photographic evidence of their derangement.  Today's diary, which finds President W guilty only of ordering Russian troops into Georgia is obvioulsy one of the "right" topics.
  1. Enlightenment:  There is the outside possibility that readers and writers at DKOS suddenly remembered that the phrase "Conspiracy Theorist" has a very specific historical origin.

One either accepted the notion of the assassination of John F Kennedy was accomplished by a "lone deranged gunman".  Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person investigated as a possible "lone deranged gunman."

Conspiracy Theorists, widely dismissed and derided, suggested that the Warren Commission came to the wrong conclusions, deliberately or by staff interference.  It was never really the job of concerned observers and readers to provide "the better answer".  It was fair enough to demand a better investigation by unimpeachably detached commissioners.

(Who would have guessed that JFK's "mysterious" murder would end up having such a ridiculously long list of plausible sources?)

There are some who are not at all happy with the results of the Kean-Hamilton Commission.  Some might argue that it reached the wrong conclusion deliberately or by staff interference.  One need not provide..in fact one should not propose alternative explanations .. here at DKOS.  But they would be described, prior to tonight as "conspiracy theorists".

So which is it?
Can one accuse President George W Bush of causing Russia to invade Georgia over trumped up issues .. because of a electoral plan.. described on mainstream tv today ... to put McCainish world issues on the front burner...???? Am I actually seeing discussion of Rove-Saakashvili connivance?   Can one suggest that WARS are triggered by backroom political machinations with sketchy evidence.  Right here at DKOS?

I FIND THAT ODD AND FUNNY AND SAD:

I thought it would be important to go into this election cycle with TWO radical DEMOCRATIC GRASS ROOTS  PARTY DEMANDS.

  1. A Full and thorough impartial grand jury investigation into ALL voting irregularities in 2000 and 2004.   Combined with a clear directive to all scanning and touch screen  voting machine companies  and local and state election officials... " You are on notice. No tampering. All Records, Machines, Tabulators, are subject to observation anytime and anywhere by appointed scrutineers from both parties and an officer of the law.    I thought that might be a useful way of knocking down CONSPIRACY THEORIES.
  1. An impartial and absolutely NON PARTISAN investigation of the events of 9/11.  (Note: no alternative explanation is required or even permissible. That would be the task of the commission. ) But seeing as America has been dragged through the mud of two wars, international condemnation, breaches of international norms of law, twists of constitutionality and a national insecurity psychosis that just happened to match the agenda of the Project for a New American Century.. maybe the future...maybe that America that might be led by a President Obama .. might reach for answers that important.

( You and I may share the notion that whatever happened is GOING TO BE LEFT AS A MYSTERY...because we can't handle the truth. Because even if you are deeply offended by the tone and direction of this diary ...we know what "redacted" pages protect.   And that will in the end be descriptive of the fatal flaw in the American Republic's descent into imperial and decadent decline.)

And so CONSPIRACY THEORISTS of 1964 - 2008 perhaps were wrong.  But why wouldn't one suspect the worst given the eccentric biography of Lee Harvey Oswald.  It's almost as bizarre as the biography of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

I live in a world where Bugliosi believes Oswald acted alone but George Bush should be on trial for murder.

I live in a world where Corsini slime believes Obama is likely both ISLAMIC  and Leftist socialist !  And now I hear that he is a 9/11 inside job dude.

Neither of these recent revelations is comforting.

Truth is a nice idea.  Sometimes we may even think we deserve it.
When it is denied, we will try to patch together explanations.

The Warren Commission was sloppy and compromised. It may or may not have reached a valid conclusion.  Too late to investigate. We can just hope the answer is in the unreleased papers.

The Kean Hamilton Commission no longer satisfies the men whose name it bears. Phil Zelikow is / was the anti-thesis of an independent investigator.  

We have learned of the power of foreign state lobbying in Washington.
TODAY it is valid to assume the worst about McCain's Georgian lobbyist-foreign policy advisor. You can make innuendos to that effect at DKOS or on MSNBC.  

And while the 9/11 tragedy seems to impinge on the "privacy" of Saudi's, Pakistani's, Israeli's and Turks, until today, this could not be discussed here.

But if George W BUSH  can be described here at DKOS as having been "RESPONSIBLE for South Ossetia Invasion" with little conclusive argument or evidence,

If such a diary gains sufficient approbation as to be rec'd into prominence...

If those same individuals who insist on valid diaries, and then express their contempt with self-revealing animal abuse and schoolyard bullying nonsense.. even claiming authority for Markos himself...  find a gnostic's diary acceptable....?

http://www.dailykos.com/...

then logically those same individuals have revealed themselves as a special interest group with a specific agenda unrelated to good discourse at DKOS.

I regret that the following two issues are NOT on the table for this election.

  1. Transparency and honesty in voting systems
  1. Re-opening the investigation of 9/11, given that Kean and Hamilton consider the Air Force testimony false, and that they considered pressing criminal charges.

These are the ravings of a Conspiracy Theorists?

Originally posted to BWildered on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:18 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  is it Medvedyev or Medvyedev? n/t (0+ / 0-)

    c'mon let's sweat...baby

    by CC Music Factory on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:21:35 AM PDT

  •  tips if you see a double standard (8+ / 0-)

    of enormous size.

    I kinda like a gnostic's thoughts..but when did that kind of evidence get embraced here?

    •  I'm not sure I see a double standard (9+ / 0-)

      and I am sure I see lots of smoking guns. U.S. training of the Georgian troops that invaded S. Ossetia. U.S.-supplied uniforms. Timing. McCain.

      Now, Russia is reporting it seized a "large arsenal" of U.S.-made weapons in the Georgian city of Senaki.

      You assert that someone is claiming that Bush empowered the Russians to invade Georgia. The Georgia-S. Ossetia controversy has been close to boiling over for months. I don't think Bush needed to cajole the Russians to respond. I think that was a given.

      A commitment of support to Saakashvili, along with troop training, uniforms and arms is ample backing to convince a stupid man that we've got his back.

      Russia would predictably back S. Ossetia, Georgia would predictably fold when U.S. support failed to materialize, and who wins?

      Putin has settled his S. Ossetia issue for a decade or three, McCain gets to play Emperor For A Day, and Bush can rely on Fox News and his idiot cult followers to maintain his 26 percent legacy.

      Where's the conspiracy?

      (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

      by doorguy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:54:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  umm did you read "a gnostic's" diary (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anna, Libertaria, Anarchofascist

        which mine is a response to?

        It would be helpful if you had..or do. Otherwise you arent really getting what this diary is about.

        What kinds of claims are worth of rec'ing up on DKOS? Can you make extraordinary claims without evidence?   Thats the issue here.

        •  umm I recommended agnostic's diary (9+ / 0-)

          and I'm sorry your undies are in such a bundle, but your argument here is a little sophomoric. Okay, a lot sophomoric.

          You're equating conflict in Georgia and a gnostic's diary------which you entirely mischaracterize---with the Kennedy assassination. That's just silly.

          (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

          by doorguy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 01:21:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  a diary by agnostic (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            anna, Executive Odor

            was acceptable, recommended and has done quite well.
            Without much to go on it claimed President Bush was responsible for the Georgia - Russia conflict.  It implies it was for electoral advantage.
            That is a conspiracy theory that includes people dying to give McCain's perceived stronger hand on world affairs a front page emphasis.

            This is astonishing to me. It means you CAN suggest that for electoral and political purposes George W Bush would ..arrange, permit, encourage, allow.. death and destruction to take place for partisan political advantage.

            I thought THAT KIND OF THINKING WAS VERBOTEN here.

            But apparently it is OK. It's rec'd by you !

            I am simply amazed.  

            You see I see equally suspicious things elsewhere but I am not to discuss them here. They are of a very similar nature. They may have more evidence.

            So.  Are you not part of the double standard.

            Take down Agnostic's diary simply on the grounds of intellectual consistency.

        •  do you know who (3+ / 0-)

          Randy Scheunemann is?

          Randy Scheunemann is a foreign policy adviser to John McCain. Scheunemann has served as a lobbyist with Orion Strategies and Scheunemann & Associates for foreign governments such as Georgia, Macedonia and Taiwan...

          He has reportedly lobbied for the Republic of Georgia while working for the campaign.

          Scheunemann was a board member for the neoconservative think tank Project for the New American Century, in addition to creating The Committee for the Liberation of Iraq in late 2002 and serving as its executive director.

          probably just a coincidence. are you familiar w/the neocons and the cold war? did you know..

          Under the Sochi Agreement Russia is a recognized peacekeeping force and mediator in South Ossetia. A yet to be revised U.S. state department page explains:

             The June 24, 1992 Sochi Agreement established a cease-fire between the Georgian and South Ossetian forces and defined both a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and a security corridor along the border of South Ossetian territories. The Agreement also created the Joint Control Commission (JCC), and a peacekeeping body, the Joint Peacekeeping Forces group (JPKF). The JPKF is under Russian command and is comprised of peacekeepers from Georgia, Russia, and Russia’s North Ossetian autonomous republic (as the separatist South Ossetian government remained unrecognized).

          in other words russia was/is the legitimate peacekeeping force under the sochi agreement to protect south ossetia. there was never any question russia would protect the citizens there in case of georgian invasion.

          so, we have haaratz reporting how wonderfully their troops performed training georgians. we have the US troops training georgians.

          and you think its outrageous to claim the trainers trained them to do what they did?

          hello. did you know the US really wants georgia to become part of nato? do you know we want to build up 'shields' all around russias borders? did you know nato doesn't accept countries w/disputed territories? therefore georgia cannot become part of nato (and accept nato bases on its soil bordering russia) unless the disputed territory becomes undisputed. (notice we support disputed territories disengaging when it suits our purpose, like kosovo). what purpose could the invasion serve?? did you know reuters reported

          Russian mediator days over in S.Ossetia

             Russia's armed intervention means it cannot return as an honest broker between the sides in the South Ossetia conflict, the head of Europe's main security and human rights group said on Saturday.

             "Russia is at the moment a party in this conflict, not a mediator, and that has to be mirrored when ceasefire and peace talks begin," Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, current chairman of the 56-nation Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, told a news conference.source

          That statement is incorrect. Russia is the official peacekeeping force in South Ossetia. South Ossetia was attacked. Now the peacekeeping force tries to return the situation to the status quo ante:

             "They must retreat to the place where they were before they started this aggression; they must retreat to where they were three days ago," [Russian ambassador to NATO, Dmitry] Rogozin told reporters in his residence in a Brussels suburb.

             Otherwise, there will be no contacts and consultations, he said.

          gee, ya think anybody would like to get russia thrown out of it's role protecting ossetia? since when do we send military troop trainers to countries and then fain surprise when they invade and cause mass slaughter?

          George W Bush would ..arrange, permit, encourage, allow.. death and destruction to take place for partisan political advantage

          maybe it is you who aren't informed. btw, most invasions require conspiracies. rarely do invasions happen w/nobody conspiring to invade.

          •  Irony- Russia will leave AFTER they have stripped (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hideinplainsight

            out all the Georgia copper and other scrap metals.

            Winter approacheth, and Russia will reap the windfall on gas sales.

            And probably "reconstruction" in Georgia will be no-bidded to Flour Daniel/KBR "the usual profiteering" suspects.

          •  of course i read and see these things! (0+ / 0-)

            But why are we allowed to discuss them?

            It adds up to death war and mayhem for political advantage.

            You may NOT suggest that about the Bush regime one day...and permit it another.

            You cannot logically argue that Bush would...because SOME GOOD EVIDENCE indicates..that Bush-McCain-Scheunemann-Rove-Saakashvili ... allow innocents to die in war for partisan and geo-political reasons...

            and would not do so on one specific other day..in one specific other place.

            Ban all discussion of Bush criminal conspiracy!

            oops...or allow it all.

            •  Fallacy of false equivalence. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hideinplainsight

              They're really not the same. Nice try though!

              Doesn't John McCain look tired?

              by SciVo on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 05:24:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  then by your equivalence (0+ / 0-)

                theory...? May I discuss the possiblity that the Bush administration allowed or orchestrated death and mayhem some other day and place?

                •  ??? I have no idea what you just said. (0+ / 0-)

                  Look. I didn't rec the other diary because it overstated the case.  However, that isn't even remotely equivalent to the metallurgical haberdashery regarding 9/11.

                  There appears to be genuine, verifiable physical evidence that the Bush administration was directly involved in arming and training Georgian soldiers and that the McCain campaign had a solid line of communication to the highest levels of the Georgian government. It takes magical psychic powers to get from there to that they're responsible for the timing of Georgia's provocation of Russia -- but with 9/11 it takes magical psychic powers just to get from a mountain of inconclusive bullshit to a claim of foreknowledge, let alone involvement.

                  Not equivalent.

                  Doesn't John McCain look tired?

                  by SciVo on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 08:18:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  actually you may (0+ / 0-)

              You may NOT suggest that about the Bush regime one day...and permit it another.

              oh yes you can. dkos isn't a democracy. the host makes rules however he wants. sometimes life isn't fair. @dkos discussion of 9/11 isn't allowed. you can stamp your foot all you want, it won't make any difference.

              this site isn't an equal opportunity free for all. it is kos's site and that's just the way it is. it is a valuable site for what it is. discovering the truth of 9/11 isn't one of the valuable assets of this site.

              frankly, it doesn't bother me that much. i would suggest you get over it. you are giving too much power away in terms of what it means to post diaries here. it isn't the holy grail. it is one valuable site for discussion within the rhelm the host is comfortable with. he can justify and cushion his rationality any way he wants. you can call him out for it, but you can't demand he change. well, you can but it won't make a peep of difference. dkos isn't a democracy.

              sorry. it frustrated me too. the stolen election drove me crazy. here's what i do, i go to other sites when i want to express myself regarding issues kos bans. he's not like my father or anything. i don't have to live in his house and play by his rules. i only respect his rules when i hang out here. when in rome and all that.

      •  The reason I see 99% agreement with a gnostic's (5+ / 0-)

        line of thinking is MSM is NOT highlighting the timeline nor connecting any dots, but letting the admin and McCain get away with wild spinning.

        The first invasion of the 21st century????  And now spinning it to the American public where Russia is the instigator of this particular situation?

        Decrying massive counterpunching by Russia (compared to 35 days of bombing by Israel in Lebanon with clusterbombs, which everybody said Shrub could have stopped with a phone call).

        Crying about "democracy, democracy" when we did zip/nada about the Haiti situation in our own hemispere?  

        Only a McCain win will save the "Bush Legacy", so we have McCain calling this the greatest tragedy in a generation, while Shrub takes one less day of vacation in Crawford....

        When we discuss such a topic, which 99% don't consider it to be very far fetched, we learn new facts, like how only 18% of Ukranians polled favor entry into NATO, while the Bush Administration stretches the entire concept of that treaty without Congressional hearings or debate.

      •  cycles of opportunism & incompetence, repeating (9+ / 0-)

        No need for overt conspiracy when shared vested interests will do, and when opportunism is strong and competence is weak.

        First, some opportunism:

        An opportunity to arm Georgia comes along, and Bush & co jump on it.  '

        I would guess that Bush armed Georgia because Iran used to own Georgia but then Russia owned Georgia, and Bush is looking to neutralize both of those interests by making Georgia beholden to the US.  

        The idea being that a US-armed Georgia could be pressure on Iran, and could also be an annoyance to Russia.  Oil is one of the common factors here also.

        Then comes the incompetence:

        Bush & co failed to predict that Georgia & Russia would get in a fight so soon.   "Uh-oh, we have a problem..."

        Then comes more opportunism:

        Neocons to the rescue, with plans from a PNAC playbook:  Use this war to make more trouble for Russia, and gain more loyalty from Georgia.  

        Also, as a gnostic said in the other diary, this becomes a great opportunity for McSame to look presidential.  Neither Bush nor McCain had to plan this one in advance, it was just "oh look, a mess, now I can look presidential!"

        Next, probably more incompetence:

        One of the aid flights will go down and crew will die.  Statistically, with enough planes and enough flights, it's bound to happen.  But with Bush's King Midas of Poo touch, it's more likely than not, possibly due to contradictory requirements (there's the incompetence factor) being placed upon the forces who are delivering aid.

        And then more opportunism:

        Attribute the downing of the plane to Iran, and rachet up the rhetoric against Iran.  

        --

        Same factors were operative for 9/11:

        Incompetence:  Bush tells the CIA people, "OK, you've got your ass covered for today" and ignores the warnings about an impending terrorist attack.

        Opportunism:   The attack occurs, and whoopie!, it's time to invade Iraq and impose domestic fascism!  Unitary executive here we come!

        Incompetence:  Redeploy out of Afghanistan into Iraq, just as our forces were about to take out Bin Laden.  In any case, screw up plans for Iraq and watch it turn into a quagmire.

        Opportunism:  Whooopie!, a Quagmire!  Time to line up all the crony snouts at the trough for a great big feeding frenzy of crony financial enrichment!  

        See how that works?  

        These people attempt to do something to make an empire, they screw it up, and then they devolve into the disorganized behavior of ordinary self-interest seeking money & power wherever these can be found.   Repeat, again and again, with every issue.  Same thing happened with Katrina.  It's their entire mode of operation.  And it explains their behavior to a proverbial "T."  

        •  remember Dana Carvey as "church lady" on SNL? (0+ / 0-)

          Incompetence:  Redeploy out of Afghanistan into Iraq, just as our forces were about to take out Bin Laden.  In any case, screw up plans for Iraq and watch it turn into a quagmire.

          Welllllllllll isnt that conveeeeeeennnnient!

          You do realize the Bush family and bin Laden family are oddly acquainted as co-investors?

          •  for family togetherness, incest is best! (8+ / 0-)

            And let's not forget Prince Bandar, aka Bandar Bush.

            However, the incest factor with Bin Laden goes all the way back to Carter's days when Russia invaded Afghanistan and US-CIA aided the "Mujahedeen" at the time, who included what ultimately became the Taliban.  

            The Taliban as such were a side-effect of the Cold War, and a pretty vile side-effect at that.  

            The Bushes have their noses in a lot of smelly places.  Don't forget, Bush Senior, ordinarily a fairly sane & rational guy even if he does things we disagree with, hangs out with Sun Myung Moon (keyword search "Moonies").

            If you stick your nose in enough smelly places, sooner or later one of those is going to turn out to be a live skunk that turns around and bites you.  

            And I also think that one of the reasons the 9/11 investigation was so compromised was that it would reveal enough Bush/Saudi connections as to prove highly embarrassing and make it appear that 9/11 was a "let it happen on purpose" even if it was not that.  

            Something along the lines of, you met some woman at a party, then you went back to her place and had fully consensual sex, and then you went home to your place, and then later that night she dropped dead of a heart attack at random, and now it looks like you killed her.   As the cops say when you're down at the station in handcuffs, "this looks really bad for you..."

            Oh yes, and the worst part for Bush being that his pure incompetence of ignoring the intel, would make it look even worse for him.  And there would be many more such details just waiting to be discovered.  Stuff like NSA translators missing the critical intercept because they were backlogged due to some dumb-ass Bush decision that overloaded NSA, for example starting up illegal domestic wiretaps as soon as he took office.  So Bush had plenty of reasons for a cover-up of 9/11 details, because once Congress started to look more closely, all manner of Bush incompetencies and other illegal activities would have come to light.  

          •  The bin Laden family compound (4+ / 0-)

            was about 5 miles from my house. The plane that circumvented FBI interviews and flew off to Saudi took off from my local airport (Orlando).

            I'm not in disagreement with most of the 9-11 'conspiracy' ideas I've read.

            But they will get nowhere, not now anyway, and kos was not only correct but obliged to disabuse them on this site. He did the smart thing, and while I disagreed then, I wholeheartedly agree now---it's proved the best course.

            (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

            by doorguy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 01:57:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You're acting like it's a shocking (0+ / 0-)

        development that a few hundred American-made rifles were in Georgia.  They're our allies.  We're open about it.  They went into Iraq with us.

        Of course we trained them, of course we helped arm them (though almost all of their weapons are Soviet).  That doesn't mean we commanded their military or directed their policy.  At worst, some in the administration gave them a wink and a nudge.  More likely Saakashvili assumed he would get more support than he did, like Nagy before him.

        WARNING: There is a high probability that the preceding comment is snark. Use your best judgment (hopefully better than Senator McCain's).

        by Anarchofascist on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 03:57:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How are they our allies? NATO is a treaty (0+ / 0-)

          the "coalition of the willing" was a facade, built on trumped up evidence.  Only 18% of Ukranians favor entry into NATO (damn them realists), but here we go shoving "alliances" all along Russia's doorstep.

          We lost interest in Afghanistan when the pipeline pipedream fell through, and only care about Georgia as far as the other pipeline can get through to Turkey.

          We PAID them to show up, flags waving in Iraq, along with Tonga and Iceland.

          Thank god nobody gave Shrub a "Canadian Bacon" DVD, else we would be marching on Montreal.

          •  The same way Taiwan, Israel, Egypt, (0+ / 0-)

            Kuwait, KSA, Qatar, Colombia, etc, etc are our allies.  It doesn't require a mutual defense pact.

            Although, the first tier of allies are the members of NATO and SEATO along with Japan and RoK.  You could probably include Israel, Taiwan and Singapore in that first tier despite the non-existence of a formal treaty.

            The Arab states we're friendly with, the former Soviet Republics not yet in NATO that we're allied with and the Latin American countries we're allied with represent a second tier.  But they're still allies in any sense of the word.

            WARNING: There is a high probability that the preceding comment is snark. Use your best judgment (hopefully better than Senator McCain's).

            by Anarchofascist on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 04:44:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, Shrub is batting .000 in the Latin American (0+ / 0-)

              ally front, with yesterday's Paraguay election veering left.

              Shrub vision is not a reliable roadmap.

              •  You may or may not have noticed (0+ / 0-)

                but when Latin American allies of the U.S. have elected more left wing governments, with a couple exceptions, they've remained Latin American allies of the U.S., only with more left wing governments.

                Paraguay's new president is remaining friendly to the U.S., as Argentina, Brazil and Chile (and a whole bunch of other countries) all have.

                WARNING: There is a high probability that the preceding comment is snark. Use your best judgment (hopefully better than Senator McCain's).

                by Anarchofascist on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 06:06:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  the difference between 9/11 and this recent... (0+ / 0-)

      ...Georgia/Russia conflict is this--

      There is actually plenty of evidence that 9/11 and the anthrax attacks (which MUST be discussed together as they were not coincidentally timed by independent parties) were coordinated by elements within the US government.  That isn't conspiracy theory, that's just fact for anyone who isn't afraid to open their eyes and accept reality.  

  •  It's not the first time Bush would have done this (6+ / 0-)

    What were they talking about last July? Did Rove meet Saakashvili in Georgia?What has Scheuneman been promising Saakashvili for years - and what message was sent to Georgia after McCain won the nomination? Was Saakashvili goaded into goading Russia for campaign purposes?

    These are all questions at this point. But given the record of Cheney and Rove of engineering foreign crises for domestic political purposes, they can't be dismissed out of hand. We could have simple miscommunication here between a supportive White House and a somewhat excitable Georgian leader. Or we could have something halfway between miscommunication and malevolence. With Rove, you can never be too sure.

    Andrew Sullivan

    More here:
    http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...

    •  can you discuss this here? (0+ / 0-)

      I dont understand.  Try discussing Bush - bin Laden connections here.  

      Which is more demonstrable. Rove-Saakashvili... Bush - bin Landen?

      Which is on the record?  Which is hiding in plain sight?

      •  If you have some kind of problem (3+ / 0-)

        with the posting guidelines of this privately owned web site then I suggest you take you concerns up with the owner. In the mean time, please delete this thing.

        "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

        by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:46:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i will dear sir (0+ / 0-)

          immediatly after a gnostic takes his down... and YOU explain to everyone who reads this post why YOU are entitled to ask for a deletion?
          Who the hell are you?

          If a gnostic can post an unsubstantiated diary accusing YOUR dear president Bush  of conspiracy to make war for partisan advantage .... and be rec'd up... apparently you dont really care about the guidelines at all. Do you?

          •  Hmmmm. Seems like someone needs a refresher (3+ / 0-)

            From the Daily Kos FAQ:

            Diaries on certain topics are likely to generate angry responses. Most of these topics fall under the general heading of "conspiracy theories", e.g., "JFK was killed by Martians". The rule for posting such diaries is "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The more extreme the claim, the higher the burden of proof that commenters will demand. If you can't provide evidence to back up your claim, it is best not to post the diary. This guideline also applies to recommending extraordinary-claims diaries. If a diary makes an extreme claim with little or no evidence to back up that claim, it shouldn't be recommended, no matter what that claim is.

            Need more? OK

            Some people have been confused by the above discussion. Let me make it perfectly plain. Diaries advancing 'Conspiracy Theories' are subject to ridicule and derision from the community at the very least. Repeat offenders can and will be banned. Yes, this does include 'controlled demolition' of WTC 7.

            Stll puzzled? Let's see what the owner says:

            The conspiracists by kos
            Fri Jul 08, 2005
            Today I did something I've never done before (not even during the Fraudster mess), and wish I'd never had to do.
            I made a mass banning of people perpetuating a series of bizarre, off-the-wall, unsupported and frankly embarassing conspiracy theories.
            I have a high tolerance level for material I deem appropriate for this site, but one thing I REFUSE to allow is bullshit conspiracy theories. You know the ones -- Bush and Blair conspired to bomb London in order to take the heat off their respective political problems. I can't imagine what fucking world these people live in, but it sure ain't the Reality Based Community.
            So I banned these people, and those that have been recommending diaries like it. And I will continue to do so until the purge is complete, and make no mistake -- this is a purge.
            This is a reality-based community. Those who wish to live outside it should find a new home. This isn't it.

            Of course, this is not the first time you pushed this garbage here as evidenced by your hidden comments. Once again, please delete this diary or I will bring it to the attention of the admins.

            "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

            by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 01:01:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Would you please mention this (0+ / 0-)

              Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The more extreme the claim, the higher the burden of proof that commenters will demand. If you can't provide evidence to back up your claim, it is best not to post the diary. This guideline also applies to recommending extraordinary-claims diaries. If a diary makes an extreme claim with little or no evidence to back up that claim, it shouldn't be recommended, no matter what that claim is.

              to a gnostic?

              Meanwhile extraordinary claims are made in my diary at all.

              So what is it in my diary that offends you that cant be found in a gnostic's?  Maybe when you ask yourself that question you will think about "bias".

              •  That's right BWildered. You make no (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                homogenius, MajorFlaw

                extraordinary clamins in this concern diary but, how do you explain your many comments made here over the past two years which do make extraordinary claims and push 911 conspiracy theory? I have warned you about this before. Remember? There are many sites on the internet which allow this discussion. The Daily Kos is not one of them. Oh BTW, 911 was an outside job.

                "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

                by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 01:13:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sir? did you read (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Safi

                  a gnostic's diary?
                  Do you think it should be deleted?
                  It violates every standard ever expected here. Yet it is rec'd.

                  I am asking if you have a double standard. I do appreciate the absence of cats however.

                  •  Take it up with the owner n/t (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    homogenius, MajorFlaw

                    "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

                    by Bouwerie Boy on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 01:21:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thats what this diary is an attempt to do (0+ / 0-)

                      and yet you expect me to delete it.
                      I dont chat with Markos.  I see him on tv and read his posts here and at other progressive sites.

                      He seems quite likeable.  I have never used his site to "explain" who did 9/11.  That's because I don't know.

                       I do not find the Kean Hamilton report to be convincing, and neither do they at least in regards to Air Force testimony.  That is quite significant to me, if not you.

                      And so sir...when you hear the phrase "9/11 mastermind"  who comes to your mind?

                      I hear that exact phrase used to describe at least 5 people.

                      When your government explains something to you and says... the stuff under the heavy black lines is not to be known by you... you embrace it enthusiastically ?

                      People who embraced state-doctored books and documents lived longer lives  in Stalin's USSR .

                      Was this a testiment to their integrity or their circumspection?  In the USA you are asked and expected to live and think freely.

                      You likely agree with much of what i am saying here. It's just you have a couple of "exceptions".

                      I would be delighted if my problem with "a gnostic's" diary came to Markos' attention.

                      You seem to speak for him a lot, so your assistance is welcome.

                  •  I'll make an ordinary observation (0+ / 0-)

                    ...its available on YouTube.  I make no claims whatsoever that it is extraordinary.

                    Its just an interesting happenstance that might require further questions/investigation.

                    I'll also further state that its just an ordinary observation that incompetence by failing to act is Cheney's best excuse for letting the planes hit their targets.

                    Its not an extraordinary or far-fetched idea.

                    Are the ideas permissible here?

                    •  I am not sure I should applaud (0+ / 0-)

                      that you opened this can of worms with the Mineta clip.
                      I want agnostic's diary stopped dead in its tracks.
                      It may be correct in its drift. Who cares?
                      It is not permissible.  

                      The very people who insist that it is is not appropriate at DKOS to suggest Bush conspiracies seem quite prepared to uprate a diary of precisely the same kind of assertions.

                      paint a plane to look like it's UN..and hope Saddam shots it down.

                      make phoney Iranian gun boats and have navy seals play Iranians

                      forge letters

                      lie

                      torture

                      None of these topic is really worthy of discussion here.

                      •  TBH, my diary was filled with a half-truth (0+ / 0-)

                        Two planes had already crashed, and the one inbound to the Pentagon and the one that crashed (not shot down, I would never suggest that Flight 93 was shot down) over Pennsylvania were the ones still in the air.

                        Technically, Cheney oversaw only one plane hitting its target (the Pentagon -Rumsfeld "ITS NOT OVER YET!") because Flight 93 never made out of Pennsylvania.

                        So when I say that "incompetence by failing to act is Cheney's best excuse for letting the planes hit their targets", I was unequivocally wrong.

                        I should have stated, "incompetence by failing to act is Cheney's best excuse for letting that plane smash into the Pentagon in a big fucking fiery explosion."  I wouldn't dare state that flight 93 might actually have been shot down, regardless of stated cinematic heroisms of the passengers.

                        We need concrete facts, facts that are mutually ascribed to by the various managements that are vociferous proponents of the first amendment of the US Constitution.

                •  100% agreement (0+ / 0-)

                  The events on 9-11 involved planes that were outside hitting buildings with insides.

    •  a much more plausible speculation on that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Theghostofkarlafayetucker

      Rove is not a foreign policy of military person.  He is a political and election manipulator.  We have some pretty well documented diaries on Siegelman, Ohio, Fl. DoJ, - that his area of "expertise".

      Now, consider what Saak has been doing with his opposition "problem", he arrests oppo leaders on trumped-up charges, he shuts down an oppo TV station, and cracks heads during a protest last November.

      Considering that he is trying to conform to EU and NATO entry guidelines, this doesn't look good in the European press, it's right out of Russia's oppression handbook.

      A more plausible explanation for Rove than engineering some grand war scheme, would be rather pulling Saak aside and saying:

      "Saak, buddy, this isn't going well when we're fighting to get you into NATO, you just can't crack heads, you've got to do it the American way, see, we have these things called Free-Speech Zones that I came up with, they work pretty well.  Here, check out my playbook on how to suppress votes and other dirty tricks while at least trying to look democratic for the silly Euros.  PR, man, it's the name of the game."

      That is something I could believe.

      It looks just like a Telefunken U47...you'll love it! - with leather...?

      by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 03:04:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The problem with a gnostic's diary... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hcc in VA, brizzlefoshizzle

    ...is that this is US policy, not Bush's policy. Clinton sent over materiel and cash for border defense.

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:31:35 AM PDT

  •  astonishing double standard (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brizzlefoshizzle

    or hypocrisy.

    We're going to attribute Russia's war on Georgia to a Bush

    But Bush's war on Afghanistan to logical fair response.

    Anyone read the status of Taliban-US relations over energy issues????

  •  a gnostic was pointing out the coincidences, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YucatanMan, KenBee, skymutt, beijingbetty

    stirred by a report he heard on the radio, confirmed by a little research regarding the training of the same 800 or more troops that invaded S.Ossetia.

    Again, the professor I heard on FSRN explained that the same troops that were training with US special forces go on to invade South Ossetia... right before an election... right at the beginning of the Olympics.

    If the troops had not been so recently trained, (say last year), or trained elsewhere, (like Iraq), then the coincidence would not be so distinct.

    But training cuts off 3 days before the invasion?

    Worth a look.

    •  and can you think of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Paddy999, brizzlefoshizzle

      any other stories from September 2001 .. way stronger than "coincidences" ... that are NOT to be discussed because they constitute "conspiracy theorizing?"

      This is a far more egregious reach, far less substaniated, far more explosive in its implications..

      Ohhhh and by the way..I tend to find the argument worth hearing.

    •  yeah i have an explanation for that. (2+ / 0-)

      See my posting above about "incompetence and opportunism."

      Bush was seeking to get cozy with Georgia to have an ally between Iran and Russia.  

      But, oops!, Bush hadn't planned on the fact that Georgia and Russia were preparing for a fight!

      NSA + NRO intel come in showing that Russia is starting to mobilize in the direction of Georgia.  

      Bush listens to his intel for once, and pulls the troops out just in time.

      Meanwhile McCain sees the developing mess as an opportunity to act presidential, and Bush decides to play along in order to be helpful to McCain.  

      Next step will be that an aircraft goes down while delivering aid (statistical probability with enough flights), and Bush takes advantage of that to make insinuations that Iran was behind it, and uses that as an excuse to rachet up the rhetoric on Iran.  However, the evidence won't be conclusive and it will be questioned by some of our allies, so Bush won't be able to use it to actually attack Iran.  

  •  It's posed as supposition. (3+ / 0-)

    a gnostic's diary is supposition. it falls short of making the accusation, but it is attempting to sound out the possibility, based on a timeline of events, and what information there is...

    i think it's a little out there, but i wouldn't shut down the discussion while news is still breaking. as long as we can keep our heads.

    if our track record for our dear president and his cronies has any weight, i think there is cause to at least ask the question: are they this craven?

    US Citizens can vote from anywhere in the world: http://www.votefromabroad.org

    by beijingbetty on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 01:31:07 AM PDT

    •  agnostic's would not be tolerated for (0+ / 0-)

      one moment if the claim concerned a different day.
      There's the rub.

    •  remember when Condi Rice was asked (0+ / 0-)

      to read the title of the Presidential security briefing note?
      Well... try reading the title of agnostic's diary outloud to the audience.... and insist that

      gnostic's diary is supposition. it falls short of making the accusation,

      •  there are diaries that make the reclist (0+ / 0-)

        all the time that i find questionable. it's community recommended, and tastes and talent run all over the board. it's not at all consistent, and few things should be taken as gospel.

        and yes, there are a few subjects that are verboten, per Kos. and 9/11 conspiracy theories are among them.

        i think the main problem is that 9/11 theories are very provocative but ultimately unanswerable -- they would distract this site from its primary objective, which is electoral politics and progressive activism. they would undermine all the other work people do here on a host of other subjects. and maybe, Kos just really feels its too kooky.

        if you can prove a discounted theory, there are plenty of other outlets for doing so. but this won't be one of them, i'm afraid.

        US Citizens can vote from anywhere in the world: http://www.votefromabroad.org

        by beijingbetty on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 03:03:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I've never seen such a POS diary (0+ / 0-)

    If you want to let the neocons going around, arming the madmen like Hussein or Saakshavili, starting fights, getting innocents killed, then GTFO of the progressive movement.

    The point is we shouldn't be arming anyone in Central Asia, much less giving them the idea that we will back them up if they decide to blow shit up with weapons we gave them.

  •  If (0+ / 0-)

    43 is responsible for the invasion then does it not follow that he worked with Putin so that Russia could plan, prepare, move, equip and do all of the other things necessary to be able to jump off as well as they did?

    •  sorry... I am not (0+ / 0-)

      going to conspiracy theory Russia Georgia.  By tomorrow it could be banned.

    •  Georgia's buildup was easy to see... (0+ / 0-)

      Not to mention that Russian intelligence was probably all over what was going on in Georgia.

      Russia anticipated it, and they acted accordingly.

      Look at the Cuban missile crisis.  We knew what they were doing and intercepted the Russian boats before they could get there.

      Same kind of thing.  There's no way that Putin had a hand in Georgia's offensive.

  •  "responsible" doesn't necessarily mean (3+ / 0-)

    a conspiracy. Bush incompetence and stupidity were indicted in the diary the way I read it. There were obvious parallels with the way the Bush senior's administration mishandled Saddam Hussein and unintentionally encouraged the invasion of Kuwait.

  •  I believe (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Theghostofkarlafayetucker

    these assholes are capable of pretty much anything, no matter how amoral or illegal. There are literally decades of evidence to back up this opinion.

    Business as usual for the oligarchs and the MIC -- the same mentality that rips people off, and throws them out on the street for the sake of the bottom line also mass-murders civilians for the sake of long-term "strategic" (or "corporate", or "national security") goals. It's just a matter of degrees.

  •  all i can suggest is that you re-read (0+ / 0-)

    agnostic's diary.

    I have no animus or deep problem with HIS diary. I likely would have read it and admitted to myself that he theory appealed to my suspicions.

    What is startling is that it is Recommended when what it does is precisely what is forbidden when it concerns one other specific topic.

    So we must conclude logically ...
    You can accuse George W Bush, personally or administratively, of planning for violence, mayhem and death in the furtherance of GOP defined US interests.

    Just be careful on what day and in which location.

  •  Drunks are experts at manipulation and lying. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm sure Bush's puppetmasters made use of this, his one and only real talent.

    If we have to account for our lives when we die, then is God being an investment banker, rather than being generous?

    by grada3784 on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 03:27:05 AM PDT

  •  Seems reminiscent of someones Iraq invasion. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    obiterdictum

    Create the pretense whether it's true or not.
    Shrub has some pretty experienced manipulators (Known as felons in the rest of the world) working for him.
    With shrub's record in Iraq, he needs to STFU about invading soverign nations and such.
    Shrub has zero credibility in the world.
    I agree with agnotics post, it's too coincidental to be a coincidence, keyword here = Cheney.

    St. Ronnie was an asshole.

    by manwithnoname on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 03:33:48 AM PDT

  •  You lost me here: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BWildered, OleHippieChick

    Normally considered barely competent,

    I don't know anyone who considers junior remotely competent.

  •  The only reason 9/11 conspiracy theories (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BWildered

    are banned from DailyKos is because Kos wants to have an impact on American electoral politics and not look like a bunch of fringer kooks, not because those ideas are unpopular here.

    Frankly, a substantial percentage of Kossacks believe things about our government, particularly our foreign policy, that, true or not, the vast majority of the American public would find shocking and abhorrent, and no politician could get further than city council of some wacky town in California if they expressed those views.

    I'm someone who agrees with the Democratic Party nominee for president on foreign policy on just about every issue and I'm in a tiny "neocon" "far right" minority here on DKos.

    WARNING: There is a high probability that the preceding comment is snark. Use your best judgment (hopefully better than Senator McCain's).

    by Anarchofascist on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 03:53:33 AM PDT

    •  People who want the truth (4+ / 0-)

      also want to have an impact on American electoral politics, because it really fooking matters.

      Its not just about 9-11.  Its about the entirety of the Bush catalog of lies.  Doesn't matter where you start -- start with Jessica Lynch, or Pat Tillman.

      Here's a scary thought.  Valerie Plame.  Can you not look at that and think that the cover-up/whitewash was so fucking global?  The powers that be (yes I know its conspiratorial) really wanted nothing to come of it.  It took the lone prosecutor Fitzgerald to even bring that whole thing to trial, and he didn't catch the big fish.  The system didn't allow it.

      Put Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton in the driver seat on the Plame affair.  WTF would've happened then?

      The only thing we want is sunlight on these criminal operations, and there has been nothing but hindrance from all sides, even from those who are supposed to be on our side.

      "Impeachment is off the table"  - Pelosi.

      Blah.

    •  IF I WERE A CONSPIRACY THEORIST (0+ / 0-)

      I would blame Ronald Reagan's FAVORITE author, Tom Clancy and the NYTimes list of best-sellers.

      In two consecutive Jack Ryan as Presnit books, he crashed a Japanese airliner into Congress, put two redneck minutemen in a concrete mixer full of agriculturally bought explosives and unleashed a ebola virus.

      When Condi Rice said nobody envisioned using aircraft as a weapon, apparently she didn't get into pulp fiction.

    •  god bless... (0+ / 0-)

      aint it so.  The historically inclined know about lots of nasty shit that goes down.
       We then watch the electoral process, and its mirror on tv, and note that the general public is not expected to know or care about imperial gambits, coups and cockups.  Its almost unpatriotic to suggest they exist.

      That's not very healthy.  A few old CIA hands should be on TV rethinking the Iran coup of the 1950's for public consumption.  What a different world we might have today if some wisdom had been applied.

    •  Can we have some Anthrax conspiracy theories? (4+ / 0-)

      I have a theory on the Anthrax.

      I know, I have my tinfoil hat on.

      But here is the way I see it.

      1.  Anthrax was stolen from a US Biowarfare laboratory in Fort Detrich, Maryland.
      1.  That Anthrax was then put into envelopes and mailed to two Democratic Senators, Leahy and Daschle.  It was also sent out to some pinko bastards in the left wing media.
      1.  Prior to the anthrax ever being sent out (right after 9-11 to be sure), the entire White House was on Cipro in a prophylactic fashion, you know, just in case someone decided to start mailing Anthrax or whatever.
      1.  Immediately after the Anthrax letters were received and people got sick and died, the Bush Administration and its pals in the media blamed it on Saddam Hussein.

      Pardon me for asking some ordinary questions:

      1.  Why does the US make 'military grade Anthrax'?
      1.  How in the FUCK does said Anthrax get stolen and sent to people who might voice an opposition to an upcoming invasion of Iraq?

      This shit matters.

      •  How does MSM, which KNOWS the anthrax (0+ / 0-)

        was a natural occurring strain/type found in Texas, let the Hussein meme even stand for a single moment???

        •  From what I understand (0+ / 0-)

          ...the Anthrax in question was not just a strain from Texas, but a strain that was only in existence within the confines of the lab at Fort Detrich.  Not to mention its 'weaponized' qualities.

          There was one place on earth this stuff could be produced, yet they blamed it on Saddam Hussein.

          Its like a special sauce.  That special sauce is available in one location only, and that is in the US military bioweapons lab.

          I'm guessing there was some kind of fowl up there, because that kind of information should never have become public knowledge.  I would've guessed it would've been sealed Kennedy-assassination style.

      •  Oh, crap! Pass the tin foil.... n/t (0+ / 0-)

        It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. Bertrand Russell

        by triv33 on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 04:35:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  drop the FOIL!!! (0+ / 0-)

          The minority view... "conspiracy theory" of JFK ..in fact prevails as majoritarian sentiment.

          The lone gunman alternative gets a boost now and again.

          There were/ are UFO- alien - cabal- witch- commie- Jew- Mason- (Hmmmmm Jackie Mason)..MIC - explanations for things in the world. There are accusations of "conspiracy".

          There are also real criminal conspiracies tried and prosecuted every day.

          The 9/11 narrative found in Kean Hamilton is certainly a conspiracy theory.

          Critics and supporters of Kean Hamilton are comparing conspiracies.  It is unfair and unhelpful to abuse the English language, to suggest that "conspiracy theory" is the equivalent of "lie" "error" or "misjudgement".

          There are plausible explanations involving conspiracies and implausible ones.

          I find all theories about 9/11 to be low on "plausibility". Thats why I favor re-investigation.

          Bring on the evidence.  Why should asking for expert and impartial examination of a crime require "tin foil" ?

      •  The U.S. makes military grade anthrax (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OHdog

        purportedly to develop systems to counter it.  And frankly, this is LARGELY the truth.  A secondary purpose, of course, is so weaponization could be completed extremely quickly so we could retaliate against a biowarfare attack with biowarfare.  Or, at least create the impression we could do so to prevent such an attack.

        WARNING: There is a high probability that the preceding comment is snark. Use your best judgment (hopefully better than Senator McCain's).

        by Anarchofascist on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 04:47:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well if you say so. (3+ / 0-)

          My opinion is that we shouldn't be weaponizing biological agents.

          Period.

          One of the reasons we invaded Iraq was because Colin Powell held up a little tube of powder at the UN.  Oh the fucking irony.

          Far be it from me to suggest that the US Military Industrial Complex will feed any and every line of bullshit to the public to justify its actions.

          "We had to bomb the city to save it!"

          "We had to produce weaponized Anthrax to prevent it being sent to Democratic Senators in envelopes!"

          I don't buy their bullshit, and the sooner that everyone else stops buying the bullshit the better.

          No sane person wants weaponized Anthrax, except for the War Machine.  And the War Machine let some of their weaponized Anthrax be sent in an envelope to people who represented obstacles to the intentions of the War Machine.

          Sure, it was some crazy bastard who OD'd on Tylenol 3.  After the FBI had intimidated his family.

        •  War crime is the term for crossing the line (0+ / 0-)

          between defensive research and the hyper-weaponization of the majority of the anthrax attack powder. The person or persons that made the spores that stayed in inhalable particles had to know the diameter of the spores and that envelopes would leak spores like a sieve endangering everyone along the delivery chain. Plasticized envelopes are available (think Tyvek as in FEDEX) if the adressee was the only target.

          Obama doesn't look like Thomas Jefferson, just Jefferson's children.

          by OHdog on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 05:04:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I've got a real kneeslapper for ya! (3+ / 0-)

    This one is far out.  Really.  Comical almost, so much comical I think we can actually discuss it here.  Picture it as a Clancy novel.

    It involves get this:

    Iranians
    Nicaraguans
    Hostages
    a rogue element of the US military that has defied Congressional authority...

    ...and a big bonus, Israel has involvement!

    The star of this movie is Col. Oliver North, who later will have a well-endowed career at Fox News trumpting our military conquests all over the planet!

    Of course neither the President, nor the Vice-President (who was formerly the head of the CIA, who would eventually become the President, whose cheerleading son would take us on a global conquest to vanquish those extremists we armed and trained) will be aware of this nefarious plot.

    I think it could be a Clancy movie.

    •  Oooh a subplot to add some background... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Theghostofkarlafayetucker

      This is coming to me in a dream, I swear! Right through the tin-foil.

      There needs to be a subplot to this to add some depth, some history and perspective.

      Said Vice-president's father, lets call him Prescott fer shits-n-giggles, was an investment banker during the 1930's.  He made a veritable shitload off of investing in Nazi Germany.  Those despicable Democrats seized his well-earned cash under the Trading with the Enemy act when WWII was in full swing.  Later, Prescott recovered that money lawfully and used it to secure a seat in the US Senate!

      This plot is so thick, its almost unbelievable.  For Clancy to write a novel that would feature a criminal enterprise from the 1980s-2008 that was initially financed with Nazi money?

      Thats just way to far out.  Its way beyond anything that could actually happen.  If anyone could make it happen, it would be Clancy.

      What if we introduced something called Operation Paperclip into the mix to soften the drama?  Think that might work?

  •  Double standards (0+ / 0-)

    do exist here, maybe even triple or quadruple, depending on the topic or the particular participants. Yes, it has been that way for a long time, in my opinion. Pointing that out though will not be popular or even appreciated and it certainly won't change anything.

    Nothing is ever broken that can't be fixed if enough people are committed ~ Bill Moyers

    by cosmic debris on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 05:54:03 AM PDT

  •  I think it's semantics mostly (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Theghostofkarlafayetucker

    The rec'd diary's title implies Dubya "thunk" all this up and is solely responsible for it. I don't think that's what the diary itself says.

    Looks like, yeah, we trained a bunch of Georgians and equipped them with some weapons and uniforms. It doesn't look like Georgia was working with the US on its invasion plans - or even told us of them, prior to doing it.

    Now if everything had somehow, miraculously gone well for Georgia's little venture and Russia either didn't respond at all or somehow bungled the response militarily, then I bet ol' GWB would've liked to have taken credit for it and "freedom being on the march" and all that horseshit.

    But it didn't happen that way at all. So my only quibble with the rec'd diary is with the title's implications.

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 06:07:40 AM PDT

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